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The his is by far the worst pick in this class. Probably the worst pick in Gutenbumst last 3 classes. Not only did he stray far from consensus. Not only did he take a 24 year old rookie and when you look historically the players that backfire at age 24 or older is extensive. You also took a player on the OL that is already 6 deep plus two additional 2nd year players taken in last year class plus another promising UDFA in Jennings. You should have been set here to just take a day 3 developmental lineman considering what you invested a year ago and the versatility you have with Morgan, Rhyan, and Jenkins.
This is another one of those picks that no matter how someone wants to spin it to me this is a really, really bad pick. I liked Belton as a guy you can get if you wanted to even reach in the 3rd or if he falls to you in the 4th. In the 2nd is one of those picks that does make me question in Gutenbumst is an inbred retard from a Hills Have Eyes movie.
I know there is no reasoning with you when you get like this but....if he's the starting RG from Day 1 and becomes a solid 4 year starter there or LT, maybe 7-8 on a 2nd contract; you wouldn't end up calling this a good pick?
I would be shocked if hes the day 1 starter at RG and if he is its an indictment on the Morgan pick. A career LT making the move of both position and side is a tall task for a rookie. Regardless, nay, irregardless, we reached on a player that was consensus nearly 40 picks lower than where he was taken, has been called out for conditioning by his coaches, and has discipline issues.
The one thing I hope we dont see is Tate Ratledge go on to be this great player for the Lions when I think hes a better player than Belton. This same thing happened when we decided on Myers over Creed.
My view of Belton is he's a RG/RT option. The only question I have about his ability to be a high level starter after some development (and we do develop the line pretty well) is the body control. Can that be fixed with different techniques or is that one of those innate things?
You have to think that the team keeps one of Walker or Tom, and lets Rhyan walk, and that Belton and Morgan fill those two roles one way or another. And given that we are unlikely to repeat that we were insanely lucky for most of the year in terms of OL health last year (but not the playoffs) these two will have plenty of snaps before then. But I don't think Belton automatically slots at OG. He's got the length, the feet, the athleticism to play tackle.
I am all about building the lines as deep and as strong as possible. People have pointed out (here and around the media) that the Packers are doing something "different" on the OL targeting bigger players, and that' true to an extent. But they seem to have realized that you can do athletic and smallish in the late/mid rounds and have success. You can do bigger and less athletic in the late rounds and not have success. You want to go bigger AND athletic, you're likely investing a higher pick.
And fwiw, I think the media consensus is wrong about this guy. He would not have been there in a round. The tackles go quick in NFL drafts. He went on 30 visits for 18 teams. I would prefer an early 3rd--maybe in the 70s. But he was not going to be there in round 3 or especially 4. I just don't believe that.
I would be shocked if hes the day 1 starter at RG and if he is its an indictment on the Morgan pick.
The Morgan pick was terrible.
As I said at the time we took a developmental OT who might not have the length to play T and might end up a guard in the first round. I was thrashed for calling him developmental, but he was clearly not ready from a strength and technique standpoint to start.
I will never get over how much better off this team would be if that pick were Dejean like we all wanted it to be. Now we still need a CB and we still don't have a clear starting spot for our round one developmental OLmen.
My view of Belton is he's a RG/RT option. The only question I have about his ability to be a high level starter after some development (and we do develop the line pretty well) is the body control. Can that be fixed with different techniques or is that one of those innate things?
You have to think that the team keeps one of Walker or Tom, and lets Rhyan walk, and that Belton and Morgan fill those two roles one way or another. And given that we are unlikely to repeat that we were insanely lucky for most of the year in terms of OL health last year (but not the playoffs) these two will have plenty of snaps before then. But I don't think Belton automatically slots at OG. He's got the length, the feet, the athleticism to play tackle.
I am all about building the lines as deep and as strong as possible. People have pointed out (here and around the media) that the Packers are doing something "different" on the OL targeting bigger players, and that' true to an extent. But they seem to have realized that you can do athletic and smallish in the late/mid rounds and have success. You can do bigger and less athletic in the late rounds and not have success. You want to go bigger AND athletic, you're likely investing a higher pick.
And fwiw, I think the media consensus is wrong about this guy. He would not have been there in a round. The tackles go quick in NFL drafts. He went on 30 visits for 18 teams. I would prefer an early 3rd--maybe in the 70s. But he was not going to be there in round 3 or especially 4. I just don't believe that.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
Anyone know where to find consensus picks of this and past drafts?
Fellas forming the consensus don’t have access to the medicals or interviews, so I never trust it fully. But would be interesting to see consensus picks’ success rate for real.
Anyone know where to find consensus picks of this and past drafts?
Fellas forming the consensus don’t have access to the medicals or interviews, so I never trust it fully. But would be interesting to see consensus picks’ success rate for real.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
I would be shocked if hes the day 1 starter at RG and if he is its an indictment on the Morgan pick.
The Morgan pick was terrible.
As I said at the time we took a developmental OT who might not have the length to play T and might end up a guard in the first round. I was thrashed for calling him developmental, but he was clearly not ready from a strength and technique standpoint to start.
I will never get over how much better off this team would be if that pick were Dejean like we all wanted it to be. Now we still need a CB and we still don't have a clear starting spot for our round one developmental OLmen.
as soon as we took Belton my first thought was Gute is not going to pay Tom what he's asking, and I have a feeling Belton pick was insurance against paying him.
also we groom OL, I can't think of any except Meyers that even started as a rookie, also Morgan is heavier and longer than Tom, wouldn't shock me a bit if we traded both Walker and Tom.
Morgan is not longer than Tom--33.25 inch arms for Tom versus 32 7/8 for Morgan; and based on their NFL combine weight, they're 4 pounds different.
I don't know why you're so fixated on this being in case they don't pay Tom instead of in case they don't pay Walker. Both of our starting OTs are finishing their contracts.
You 100% pay Tom what hes asking. Probably 3rd best RT in the league behind Lane Johnson and Penei Sewell. Probably resets the RT market but thats fine. You pay a top 5 player at his position that money and if he doesnt take it you tag him.
You dont draft a great player and just let him go after his rookie deal. You find ways to keep guys like that.
Morgan is not longer than Tom--33.25 inch arms for Tom versus 32 7/8 for Morgan; and based on their NFL combine weight, they're 4 pounds different.
I don't know why you're so fixated on this being in case they don't pay Tom instead of in case they don't pay Walker. Both of our starting OTs are finishing their contracts.
well it's because I'am not looking at Tom as a LT, his game may not transition to LT, he's been playing exclusively at RT for 3 years.
hey don't shoot me, I'am only trying to understand why Guty took both tackles so high in each draft class, one you seem to think is a bust in Morgan and Lupe concerning Belton.
and Guty's approach is always D&D, especially with OL, while you think Tom can switch to LT, I'am not so sure, and Tom is going to ask for top tackle dollars, while Belton has RT written all over him, money or futures money drives a lot of Guty's draft picks
To be clear, I don't think Morgan is a bust. I think he was a bad value pick at the time he was picked and I don't know what position he fits best at.
I think his movement and body and strength profile says tackle... except his arms. under 33 inches is SHORT for an NFL tackle. Like that just almost never happens. Then blend in that we seem to like getting bigger and stronger on the inside when you look at Banks and Rhyan and last year's top UDFA Donavan Jennings and this year's 7th rounder John Williams... all more than 320 pounds. I'm not sure where Morgan fits into that.
I think he will be able to play.
Honestly, maybe the "athletic OT moves to C" narrative should be about Morgan.
Also, Tom was a left tackle all through college, so it's not a new position or something he'd struggle with mechanically. Whether he'd take a step back in quality by playing on that side against better rushers might be a question. But this isn't the standard "some people struggle switching sides" narrative because we have tape on it. He has already switched sides.
Mosqueda agrees with me that the consensus board did not reflect in Belton's case how high teams were on him (his thinking is the coaches like him more than scouts so it moved up late in the process)
Mosqueda disagrees with me that he can hang at OT in the NFL.
Mosqueda agrees with me that the consensus board did not reflect in Belton's case how high teams were on him (his thinking is the coaches like him more than scouts so it moved up late in the process)
Mosqueda disagrees with me that he can hang at OT in the NFL.
Justis doesn't think he has the feet to stay at OT. Seems people are split on that.
Consensus boards aren't always right. I think the position got pushed up just due to circumstances as well. I get lupe being down on Gutey going outside the consensus, it hasn't typically worked out well. But it's a small sample size and guys were being taken well outside the consensus this draft. Whether it was more than usual, who knows, but it felt like it.
To be clear, I don't think Morgan is a bust. I think he was a bad value pick at the time he was picked and I don't know what position he fits best at.
I think his movement and body and strength profile says tackle... except his arms. under 33 inches is SHORT for an NFL tackle. Like that just almost never happens. Then blend in that we seem to like getting bigger and stronger on the inside when you look at Banks and Rhyan and last year's top UDFA Donavan Jennings and this year's 7th rounder John Williams... all more than 320 pounds. I'm not sure where Morgan fits into that.
I think he will be able to play.
Honestly, maybe the "athletic OT moves to C" narrative should be about Morgan.
Also, Tom was a left tackle all through college, so it's not a new position or something he'd struggle with mechanically. Whether he'd take a step back in quality by playing on that side against better rushers might be a question. But this isn't the standard "some people struggle switching sides" narrative because we have tape on it. He has already switched sides.
I wish he wouldn't have gotten hurt (and then hurt again). It's impossible to say how he may have progressed throughout the year had he actually been able to participate at all. It sucks, it's mostly a lost year for him. Time will tell where he fits. But it sure sounds like they are going to give him 1st crack at LT next to Walker.
I wish he wouldn't have gotten hurt (and then hurt again). It's impossible to say how he may have progressed throughout the year had he actually been able to participate at all. It sucks, it's mostly a lost year for him. Time will tell where he fits. But it sure sounds like they are going to give him 1st crack at LT next to Walker.
I think he held up pretty well in his RG snaps when he was rotating with Rhyan. He wasn't better than Rhyan, I don't think, but he looked like all the makings of an NFL starter. But again, that was inside.
I'll be very interested to see how the reps are divvied up in camp, but even that won't tell the story. Most of these position decisions get made for you when injuries strike. That's how Tauscher ended up a T not a G (could have gone either way). It's how Tom ended up on the right not the left (because we thought Bakh was healthy).
Morgan took some C snaps, too. They had him at a variety of places. You gotta see what these versatile guys can and can't do; the downside of the versatility is sometimes it takes a bit to find the right spot. We can think all the way back to Mike Wahle who utterly failed at OT before becoming a staple at G. Morgan will play in this league. I just don't like spending a first on a guy that far away from being ready and I don't know if he has the technical skills and other traits to make up for his lack of length out there. I mean the Will Campbell debate about arm length and T vs G is running wild right now, and Campbell's arms measured 32.625 inches at the combine, where everyone seems to agree the measurements were universally wrong to the short side, and 33" at his pro day. Morgan's arms are between those two measurements, so the argument applies at least as much to him.
I could see a line of Belton, Banks, Jenkins, Morgan, Tom by the end of 2025. That would mean Tom is the smallest OL of the group.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
I could see a line of Belton, Banks, Jenkins, Morgan, Tom by the end of 2025. That would mean Tom is the smallest OL of the group.
I was thinking about that line specifically and how funny it is that it is reversed from the norm, where the right side has the bigger, better run blockers traditionally (all of that is becoming less true in time as the league shifts toward passing and whatnot, but still a funny reversal)
